Healing from PTSD & Trauma

Video Transcript

Robbie:

Luckily, when bloody people are watching us, they won’t be pressing this one. Hey, mate, I love the first part of the podcast there. It was so, as I said to you just in the little intermission we had, I’ve loved learning about your personality, your background, why you joined the military, and like, you know, you would agree, some sort of never before heard stories about you, so I’m really glad that our listeners are getting to know the man, the myth, the legend, coming to you from live and uninterrupted from here at downtown Surfers Paradise.

Right, so, you just, we’re in 1998, you got through commando selection, I spoke a heap about that during my podcast, and I guess, is there any sort of point you want to bring on about that?

Weston:

No, I mean, when I say no, I mean, you know, the selection course, I get asked a lot of questions about it, so feel free to send me a DM about it. There are people out there who are now making a living on, no pun intended then, but, you know, they’ve got professional, you know, guidance packages and stuff, and also there’s a lot online. So, all I will say that if you are particularly interested, you know, to start is to start. So, I get frustrated with people who proliferate, you know, about when they should do it and what they should do. If you want to give it a fucking crack, train, give it a crack, get online, speak to the appropriate people about it or whatever. Certainly if you run into a problem or anything like that about it on any of the selection courses and you want to have a chat, you know, then reach out to, you know, someone, you know, through their, whether it’s myself or someone else, I don’t care, but, you know, reach out to them on their media and hopefully we can help you steer you on your right path.

But other than that, it’s really just fucking doing it, you know.

Robbie:

Yeah, I mean, you and I saw many, many kimono selection courses go, you know, as we were bouncing up and down through the ranks there. I guess the bit of tip that I would pass on is, like, look after yourself while you’re training. Don’t start the course with a niggly injury because it will be exposed very, very quickly and then you’ll find yourself up shit creek and then you’re all the way back to square one. So, yeah, take care of yourself while you’re training. So, mate, you finished your kimono training and then sort of, you know, what happened? What was the next major milestone that you can sort of remember there as we speak about your time down at Holesworthy for about 20 minutes? Like, we’re going to talk about 15 years in 20 minutes.

Give us the highlights, mate.

Weston:

Yeah, well, I think the next thing that’s happened, you know, was specialist courses. So even more courses after you finish the selection course.

And I think, you know, I did a fair few of them, but one that I really enjoyed doing was the climbing course where we went down to the Arapalese. You know, we climbed down there for two, I think, two or three weeks. And again, for the listeners, just to quickly quantify when I say climb, we’re talking the level that we go to on that course is lead climbing. So, you know, leading up a unclimbed climb.

Robbie:

Like a fucking Yama.

Weston:

And, you know, putting the protection and stuff in, and we have to do that, you know, with body armour on, armed. We don’t carry a full, as in a normal weapon. We just carry a small, like a MP5 or something like that.

Robbie:

Yeah, so this is not like adventure training. This is tactical, you know, war zone sort of stuff.

Weston:

And that’s my point I’m making. And we have to do that by night on night vision goggles. That’s your terminal climb. And I’ll tell you what, you know, when I watch some of these sport climbers out there, and I’m sure everyone’s seen people climb, and you see now the… What’s the climbing where they race you, see the Olympics? That is sport climbing, is it?

Robbie:

Yeah, I’m not sure what it’s called, but… Fucking fast climbing. Yeah, they go up like a fucking horrifically thing.

Weston:

They climb like 20 metres. You know, what you’ve got to understand is all those climbs are top roped. And what that means is if you fall, you know, you fall back a certain distance. But basically, you know, you’re assured, your safety’s assured the whole time. Whereas when you are lead climbing, you’re putting in your protection. And if at any stage you fall, you fall back to that last piece of protection you put in.

And over night time, putting protection in with the error of, as in the generation of goggles that we had back then, being the Fidelity and everything, that provided this fucking risk. Fucking terrible, yeah. So the short story was I was on my terminal climb.

And I’d finished one already that night or whatever it was on the night before. And I was on to another one. And I remember I just burnt out.

And I was on a double pitch, which means, you know, most ropes are 50 metres. So after you’ve climbed that, you’ve got to then reset up another point and climb again. So it means you’re climbing up over 100 metres.

Anyway, I remember doing the second part. And my hands just pumped. And I couldn’t see.

The night vision goggles were fogging up. I was getting extremely fatigued. I’d been climbing nonstop now for three weeks.

You’ve got all little bits of plaster and stuff on your hands, holding your fingers together and whatnot. And I just remember going, fuck it. The only way I’m going to get out of here now is to just fucking climb.

Like I am not stopping. I’m not putting any protection in or whatever. And so I did that for, I don’t know, it was another couple of bounds, another several metres, and basically then come off and fell.

But there was a little rock ledge there that caught me. Otherwise, and I’m not saying this in a morbid sense, but like the reality is I would have fucking died for sure because I would have fell, you know. Too far.

And plus the, you know, the stress factor on those pieces of protection, you know, then they can start pulling out. Obviously the higher the fall is, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, but yeah, that was probably not, well maybe my next high life, but I fell and I broke my coccyx.

And I remember lying there on the ledge. And this was probably when I was like, you know, right, out of all the things I’ve been through and all the training you’ve done, you’re now actually in the fucking big boy’s pool. Because I was on the radio and they were like, H, what do you want to do? We’re going to have to like wait an hour or so to get a chopper and to get you off that ledge or whatever.

And I just remember lying there and I was in a fucking pain. Like I broke my coccyx, took my coccyx off. And I looked up and had like, I don’t know, 30, 40 metres or something to the top.

And I said, yeah, leave it with me. I’m going to climb out. And they’re like, can you, you’ll be right? And I was like, I’ll climb out.

And I just fucking climbed the rest of the way, noting that I’d already fallen with no pro. I never put a single fucking protection in, which I’m not bragging about, not smart. It was basically a one-way death mission.

If I fell from there, but I was like, the only way I was going to get out of there was climbing. I remember coming down off that mountain, hobbling back down, because you can walk down a much gentler slope, you know, on the opposite sides. I remember coming back down the bottom and the boys were just standing there and they’re just like fucking, just looking at each other, shaking each other’s head.

And I was just like, well, you know, just a bit of a shoulder shrug. But I remember looking back at that time, you know, in that moment, just going, you know, like this is, you know, this is the fucking real deal. As in, you know, you can lie around here and, you know, but now you’ve done selection, you’ve done all these things.

And that’s what, you know, what I used to say to guys, I was actually a wing sergeant major on the selection course for years. And I’d say, mate, the selection course, you know, when they’re absolutely fucked and about to spit their dummy, I’m like, mate, this is the easiest fucking thing I’m going to do. Like, as far as like being in the unit and all the operations, and, you know, everyone here right now at the table is fucking nodding.

But, you know.

Robbie:

You’re not facing any real danger. You’re in a controlled environment. You’re just doing selection.

Weston:

I’m like, this is the easiest fucking thing you can do. Because after that.

Dave:

At that time and in that moment, it feels as though it is the toughest and the hardest thing.

Robbie:

Of course.

Dave:

And having that realisation and that mindset, unfortunately they don’t tell you that beforehand or they don’t necessarily teach you. They run it as though this is the hardest. But when you get out there, yeah, very relevant. Yeah.

Robbie:

Hey, tell me. When 9-11 happened, where were you? What were your thoughts?

Weston:

9-11, I was standing in the mess hall in Timor. And I just grabbed a feed. I can’t remember what. We’d just come back from some patrol. And I remember sitting there and going, you know, just looking at the TV screen, just, you know, with a feeling that it was surreal. And you just had to watch it. And, you know, anyone listening will remember, you know, it was on repeat, all those different images. And you just, I think you literally needed to sit there and see it so many times for like a fucking hour to go, like, fuck, you know, for it to actually sink in. And I remember even then driving back. It was up at, wherever the headquarters was. I can’t remember. Balibo or something? Balibo, yeah. And then we were up at Bobanara. And I remember there’s been a couple of hour drive home or whatever it was.

And I remember driving back to the base, as in where Bravo Company was. And it was just, yeah, it was just this feeling that I really can’t describe. But one thing I knew, and, you know, I don’t mean this, I mean this in the most respectful way I can say it, but I fucking tell you now, no word of a lie, I did sit there and think like, like, right, because now we are fucking on. I didn’t know what was going to be unleashed in the world. I didn’t know how it was going to play out. But I knew that I was going to get my fucking war. And that’s what I wanted. Like I just wanted to get heavily involved in, you know, I always used to look at that Vietnam era. And then because when I joined, there was a lot of post-Vietnam era personalities, you know, the senior guys in amongst the ranks.

So that’s what I refer to, you know, our war is in. You know, right or wrong, I’m not getting into the politics, I’m not getting into the type of conflict, I’m not getting into fucking any of that. Okay, but for the soldiers who were serving, soldier, sailors and airmen, who were serving in the Australian Defence Force at that time, and as I try and explain to people, most of those people, and I understand there were conscripts back then, most of those people want to serve. They want to deploy. Doing an operation is what they’ve joined for. So for me, sitting there after that happened, you know, I, you know, it most certainly sunk in the full weight of it all, as in, holy, this is a horrific thing.

But I fucking knew right then and there that not only this is going to change the world, this is going to 100% change my life. And then ironically, it was come like, well, that was September, obviously. It was about eight weeks later and they’d already made decisions about the raising the extra counter-terrorism capability.

And then there was a heap of us got interviewed whilst in Timor. And then I got pulled home early from East Timor after being away six months, I think I was given a week or two at home. And then there was 35 of us, I believe, if my memory serves me correctly, in the initial group of the hand-picked two commando guys who were sent to then SASR to then go through a screening process.

And then they sent over a couple more groups so that we all had different stages of, you know, experience and training and stuff. And then that was the formation of the Tactical Assault Group East.

Robbie:

That’s when the government said, righto, we can’t just have a Tactical Assault Group sitting over in Perth. We need one sitting over in the Eastern Seaboard. So yeah, it’s a cool story, man. Yeah, it’s like you were, so you were on operations. It’s like, I’m talking to you right now and the NRL Grand Finals on Sunday this week, right? So we’re talking like, what’s the second, first or second of October right now. You guys are probably gonna listen to this in about a month’s time. And I’m like, you’re playing first grade already. You’re not in the bloody junior ranks anymore. You’re not in the normal, you know, you’re not in the big blue one anymore and no disrespect for that. But obviously you do work your way up from a capability perspective.

But all of a sudden you don’t have to play the rest of the season and you’re playing the grand final now. And you’re gonna play the grand final every fucking year for the rest of your life. And that’s going overseas into Afghanistan and going to that war, if you quite rightly say. And I know there was some Iraq trips in there as well for those that got a chance to go. So yeah, mate, it certainly would have raised the stakes. I reckon, and I wasn’t in SOCOM when that happened. I was still up in Townsville being a senior NCO. But you know, certainly when I got down there and then I eventually went across, as you know, Alpha Company went and deployed on SOTG1 with Mick Lowe and the rest of the team there. So, you know, certainly I knew that my life had changed right then and everything was gonna be playing grand final like level sort of, you know, heighten of awareness.

Weston:

Yeah, it was just a massive game changer. Like I look at that day, you know, certainly for me, I put a lot of emphasis on that day and the fact that it’s only just passed, as in, you know, we’ve only just clicked over 1st of October on this recording date. You know, on that day I sit there and I just think of like just how much, both positively, you know, and also other effects that it’s had on my life. Like that fucking date means more, it doesn’t mean more to me than Anzac Day and I wouldn’t frame it like that. But it’s had a lot more of an effect. Anzac Day is Anzac Day, but for me personally, 9-11 has absolutely fucking literally changed my life in so many ways.

And in a lot of bad ways, you know, like it gutted the life, like a direct result, you know, of the components of what’s happened with my family, which I won’t go into details on this podcast. But just, you know, the changes, you know, and just I actually like sitting back and seeing also the ripple effect of everything that happened, you know, the growth of units, you know, and different things. Like, you know, I don’t believe the Special Operations Engineer Regiment would have become the Special Operations Engineer Regiment, as in we just didn’t have that force.

Robbie:

It wouldn’t have been a need for it.

Weston:

That’s what I mean, you know, that we needed to grow, whereas America had been involved in, you know, other conflicts and realised that they, you know, needed this jointness and blah, blah, blah. Anyway.

Robbie:

Where were you, Simeon?

Dave:

I was certainly a catalyst for a lot of changes. I was actually in SOAR, Special Operations Engineer Regiment. Prior to that was the Incident Response Regiment. Before that, it was IRU and then JIRU. Before that, again, for the Commonwealth Games and the Olympics. But for me, we were actually up at Sunshine Coast Coolum, I think it was, and we were doing searches for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting that was going to be held there very soon after that day. And so, yeah, we’d already deployed out of Sydney and headed up to there. We’d already done a bunch of searches with the dogs, a dog handler at that point in time. And, yeah, we woke up in the morning or whatever it was of the evening or late at night when it first happened and, yeah, all the TVs came on and it was just everywhere.

And from there, obviously, or maybe not obviously, but the Chogham meeting got cancelled and we were all recalled back home. And then, yeah, likewise, very soon after that, I was assisting with TAG East to raise our dog capability to support TAG East in their role as well.

Robbie:

Tell us, H, while we’ve got Simo in the room here, did you have some positive experiences or what were your experiences like with the EOD and MWD dogs over there?

Weston:

I had… So, speaking specifically on the engineers, on what got called the Special Operations Engineer Regiment, referred to it as SOAR, I think they went through a steep learning curve and I’ll be extremely honest here. I think at the start, they had… We’d been developing things for a long time and they had a lot of catch-up to do. I’ll give them absolute hats off and credit to them, they made that fucking catch-up.

Robbie:

Totally.

Weston:

But I do remember, and also with my personality at that time and the focus that I had on the mission, I was like, fuck me, these guys need to sort their shit out. But that’s of no fault of their own. They would only just start and they were thrown in and there was nothing special about them.

They were thrown in to do or to be enablers, enhancers and other specific capabilities they brought to the party for both SASR and two commando force elements whilst they’re out actually conducting the actual special operation. So I think in the early days, it was fucking clunky, to use another word. But again, to give them credit, they very much got to the place that we needed them to be and where that they needed to be to be internationally recognised as a special operations engineer regiment as opposed to some more fucking engineers.

Robbie:

It’s always a really hard thing when you have an add-on to the team. So you’ve got the nucleus of the team, everyone knows the TTPs, everyone knows the specific roles that they need to play. Then a few weeks before someone comes and bees a bolt on for want of a better term. And then they’ve got to get themselves up to speed. But the last thing you want to do is having someone putting their hand up and go, I’m out. You’re like, no motherfucker, we’re in the Badlands. There is no out. You can’t put your hand up. This is not fucking Jumanji where you just bloody disappear. So that’s what you’re protecting, isn’t it, H? You didn’t want to carry that liability. So you’re like, sort your shit out, please, ladies and gents. And it’s a natural evolution of any new capability that comes online. But to their credit, Dave, as H has said a few times, you guys perform some amazing fucking things for many SOTGs.

Weston:

But it rolls directly into business as well. And to me, that’s really, really important. And there was a stage when I could look back at myself when maybe I was, not maybe, where I was less mature and I was just more too focused and wouldn’t possibly see the bigger or broader picture. So when you look at training people, and that’s why I wanted to come back to this point, because to me, I love and enjoy the challenge of training people. I love and enjoy the challenge of growing people in any fucking environment.

And that’s why I always like to, it’s good for us to sit around the table and talk this military stuff. But to me, it’s also especially important for some of that to be translated into how could you use some of the components or theories that we’re talking about in your business or your work. And the point I’m making is, if you have someone come in and you need them to provide X amount or you need them to provide whatever their job role function is within your organisation, then it fucking totally 110% behoves you to put everything that you can into that person and to invest into them to make them the best version of what they can be in that job or function because, hey, guess fucking what? If you don’t, who’s it coming back onto? Your business.

Now, you can all sit there and nod your heads and go, well, that’s fucking obvious. But do you know the amount of people out there that don’t invest in their people and in fact, when they fuck up or get something wrong, berate them or ostracise them or do this? I see it every day still. And it’s all that is doing is lessening their effectiveness or optimisation in your fucking business and you’re paying for them.

I mean, how fucking retarded are you? Yeah. So to me, it went through a stage where I would absolutely grill guys as in operators in the unit when they would fucking say any pun about any support staff guy or any other enabler, whether it’s a joint terminal attack controller coming down from the Air Force, whether it was this guy, whether it was that guy because I’m like, hey, if we don’t get these guys up to the level we need them to and especially the guys coming outside the wire with us because there’d be lots of people attached to us for the listeners who wouldn’t actually go out on the operation. They’re back inside a base, but they’re helping us and we need them, but they’re not out on the ground where the dangers and risks are obviously exponentially higher.

And it was like, you know, you need to invest in these people. We need to stop walking around like, hey, I’m the fucking operator here and you need to bring them well inside that team and you need to teach them and show them as much as you fucking can. I don’t want guys sitting back here not doing anything when we’re down the range. Put them in the fucking team. Put them in the range. Throw them in a helicopter. Throw them back at the back of the plane. You know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that’s why I wanted to make that point about that correlation between that and business and real world.

Dave:

Yeah. I actually think those comments are extremely accurate and fair, man. Sola, when it first was raised, it first was JIRU back in the day for the Olympic Games in 2000.

Robbie:

Joint Incident Response Unit.

Dave:

Yeah, Joint Incident Response Unit. So we came from regular army at that point in time.

We didn’t have a selection at that point in time because it wasn’t SOCOM. We weren’t SOCOM, Special Operations Command. So everyone coming in there was selected to be, because they were the better of the better at that point in time, but not a specific selection.

It wasn’t until many years later that we actually started creating our own selection course, which by no means is nothing compared to what the commando or the SASO.

Robbie:

It didn’t need to be, mate. It just needs to be capability specific to close that gap that Hayes was talking about.

Dave:

Exactly. But at that point in time, like Hayes said as well, we were going outside the wire with them. So when TAG East was raised and we were operating with them, then we did need to have that capability raised within ourselves as well.

Man, that comment you just made there also about the business side of it as well. I think that’s extremely accurate into how we actually operate within Axon Property Group. If we find a gap in training or a gap in operations when someone is doing something, then yeah, we’re extremely flexible and able to identify those things and then implement training to bring those people up without belittling them, without making them feel bad, just highlight the gaps and then implement training to get those guys.

Robbie:

You know, we’ve got someone sitting here right now like it’s a perfect segue. This is something I wanted to talk to you about, Adam. And I know you spent some time down in Socom and you’ve experienced and witnessed all the stuff that Simo, Hayes and myself are talking about.

But how long were you in training for? So you’d already gone through the whole process, built an investment property with us, clearly not an idiot. You knew what you were doing. You were being kept, like your levels of awareness were really, really high, but your level of involvement was really low.

And then you come and put an Axon shirt on. And then how long was your training regime before effectively you were deemed competent and then you could go and talk to clients without any supervision?

Adam:

Well, it’s hard to say. It’s hard to quantify because at the end of the day, I’d already done training by being a client.

So I was already a warm start. And I think, you know, if you’re turning that around into regular Army Socom terms, I’d done my Army time and now I was coming into Socom. So, you know.

Robbie:

Well done. You can stay.

Adam:

I can stay. I’ve earned another week. But I think at the end of the day, I definitely came in and started training under yourself, Robbie, and with Damo. And then we sort of changed things up, changed our capability bricks, and I went across and became a property specialist under Simmo.

And that in itself, that change was integral to our training platform because we’re all property specialists working in the same area now and we’re all doing the same thing day in, day out. We see everyone’s moves and we see exactly what we’re doing. So our output is exactly the same now.

So our training was, you know, six months.

Robbie:

Have you loved the training continuum that you’ve been along, like all the stuff that H is talking about?

Adam:

Yeah. Oh, no, absolutely.

It’s been really, really good. And I think, you know, there’s nothing like getting in there and doing the real-time stuff, which is exactly the same as what we’re talking about, you know, through Socom, everything like that, that real deal post 9-11. Getting out there, talking to clients, doing everything like that.

It’s that real deal.

Weston:

I always like to ask, and, you know, you haven’t had an opportunity to speak much today and that’s just the way it crumbles, but I always like to ask everybody this question and you just caught me there with it. So if you could improve it, because, you know, this is in, you know, Robbie’s here, he’s running the show.

I think it’s always good if we ask yourself that question. So if you look back, what’s something that Robbie can improve when he brings the next lot in or the next training continuum?

Robbie:

Be nice, please. No, you’re fucking ripping me.

Adam:

I actually don’t know. I really, really don’t because I wouldn’t change anything I’ve done. I think the platform that we have and the ability and the fact that we’ve changed the way where we’ve done, you know, our capability bricks, we do that every day and Simo will attest, I call him up on everything, even when I was on my second day. Asking the wise, doing all that sort of stuff. I don’t think there’s anything that we can change in our training continuum because we have the platform there already. The I’s, the T’s will change, you know, the numbers will change integrally but the training platform from that mentality doesn’t need to change.

So I don’t think there is anything.

Robbie:

It’s not just a bunch of veterans doing shit. It’s a real military style business that we run. Everything has got a SOP, everything’s got a flow chart, everything’s got a rank structure involved as well, but we all fucking call each other.

Adam:

Simo’s got a template for everything. Yeah, that’s right.

Weston:

The really good, if you didn’t pick it up, the really good chestnut out of that there or the little gold nugget is, so when you’re running a business or running anything, whether you’re fucking running your own life because we all have to do that or sometimes we do. Anyway, sometimes you need to be adults, is if you constantly evolve something and you constantly improve it, no matter how small or incrementally, but you make note of that incremental improvement and acknowledge it within the team or at the lowest denomination even within yourself and you constantly do that through the cycle and that’s why we just got the answer we just got. And again, that was not fucking rehearsed whatsoever because when it’s constantly ticked off and you’re threaded into the cycle and our processes and our procedures and whatnot, then there never becomes this fucking clunk and the clunk, the difference I’m talking about is when you go to that work meeting with whatever job role function you’ve got in whatever business organisation, fuck, it does not matter and you go to that meeting and you know everyone’s sitting there and there’s a fucking elephant in the room because it’s been there a month and people are pissed off because there’s something that’s not happening and not happening effectively or efficiently or someone’s not listening and the change hasn’t been made for whatever reason but it’s affecting every person there and it’s affecting core outputs every fucking day and they don’t change it and they won’t change it and then when you drop it, that’s what I mean about the clunk, it’s like this little fucking bomb that just happened in the room or the white elephant or whatever analogy you want to use that should have never occurred at all because we should all always be about constant improvement and optimisation but again, it just bewilders me the amount of places that will let such small little things just fucking develop into this big thing. If you get a splinter in your hand and you leave it in there, it turns pussy, gets infected or whatever, cut that thing out that day and then it’s gone.

Robbie:

I know that we just sort of transitioned into business stuff but let’s just finish off your story, H. So what year did you transition?

Weston:

I had to think about that. Can I use a cricket’s noise?

Robbie:

Yeah. Go for it, mate.

Weston:

So I got out in… My actual discharge date was December 2014.

Robbie:

After how many years?

Weston:

Just short of 25, so 24 and a bit.

Robbie:

And how many operational tours?

Weston:

I think 10 or 11 in total.

Robbie:

Lots.

Weston:

Yep. Importantly, 2014, most of 2014, I wasn’t actively serving is the best way to put it. I wasn’t in a mental hospital. What I’m saying is I had literally 300 and something days of fucking leave and I still got paid out. Right. I had to get a two-star general to waiver the amount of leave I had on my last deployment. But again, we won’t talk about that.

I’ll get another letter from the Chief of the Army. I guess with my… And speaking about transition and the reason I actually asked Robbie if we could talk about this for a minute, not just for the veteran listeners but for anyone who does a major transition from one thing in their life because there’s a reason with high-performance people and also just other people, but in particular, why high-performance people fall so hard. How many times have you seen a football player after he shifts team or gets out of this in the news and there he is, he’s in a misdemeanour, generally involving some drugs, generally involving some young females and generally involving some alcohol because these are all coping mechanisms that are used and when they are depended upon and used in an incorrect way, they’ll soon fast send you off track.

So back onto my transition and some points about that. So I had nothing short when I look back, as in I should not have got out when I got out. So my last deployment was just over 13 months.

I came home three times in that 13 months, two for funerals, one for Cam Baird’s funeral, one for Hans Fleer’s funeral, who was the Honorary Colonel of the 2 Commando Regiment and one to be charged for some disciplinary matters that caught up with me. So when I look at that and then I’ve come home after that long deployment and immediately, and this is where, when you look at red flags, immediately I’ve decided to leave my beloved family, immediately I’ve decided to leave the unit and the army and then basically I’m just out there on the street. Now I made those choices but certainly the point I’m making is we need to have those catches in place and it’s something that I talk about a lot and that’s happening now with some of the enquiries that are occurring, that the transition…